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(wind blowing)

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Welcome to Pick Up and Deliver, the podcast

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where I pick up my audio recorder as

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I step off the train and deliver an episode

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to you while I walk home.

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I'm Brendan Riley.

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(upbeat music)

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Well, good afternoon listeners.

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It's a lovely day here in suburban Chicago.

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I'm enjoying my walk home with the temperature

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in the mid 50s, which is very nice.

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Not wearing my jacket.

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Ha ha.

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Well, I was thinking about what I would talk about

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with you today.

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And I think this might be a thing I'll do

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moving forward just because I'm lazy and it's useful.

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I don't know if you recall a couple of weeks ago.

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I did an episode stealing a topic

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from the podcast Cardboard Philosophy.

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Well, today I'm swiping another episode, another topic.

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This is from the most recent episode

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of the Secret Cabal Gaming Podcast.

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Their special topic of discussion was

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Determinism versus Randomness.

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Now this is something I've certainly talked about

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on the podcast before.

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If you go to the show page for this episode,

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over at rattleboxgames.com,

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you'll find a series of links to other episodes

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where I've talked about these issues,

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but I thought it would be helpful

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to talk about this issue with you here and explore it.

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So essentially what they talked about

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on the Secret Cabal Gaming Podcast was

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the viewer wrote in and said that they really liked

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the conversations they've had about randomness

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and about determinism on the Secret Cabal.

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And they asked the founders to discuss

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their absolute favorite games that do the most randomness,

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the most determinism.

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And if there are any games that exist in the butter zone

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exactly between the two extremes.

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And that's what the group talked about.

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Now the founders did elucidate one essential difference

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that the person making inquiry

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didn't really connect with,

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which was the topic of randomness being,

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what sort of I'm looking for,

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that randomness functions in two ways in games,

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the randomness functions as a set up mechanism

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or as an outcome mechanism.

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Now what's interesting is if you listen to the podcast,

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they get these terms backwards,

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at least I'm about 95% sure they did.

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I looked it up, I definitely know that I'm using them correctly,

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but from what I heard, it sounded like

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they were using them incorrectly.

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So I'm gonna define a couple terms first.

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In game design, there is a phrase,

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there are two phrases, two terms, input randomness

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and output randomness.

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The input and output have to do with when the random items,

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when the randomness of the game manifests

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in relationship to the decisions the players make.

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The part that the,

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the part that the secret cabal got wrong is,

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which one means what?

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As far as I've been able to tell,

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input randomness is where the game produces the randomness,

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it inputs it before you make your decision.

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The game includes the randomness, it comes in,

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you make your decision.

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Output randomness is you make your decision

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and then the randomness comes out of that.

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That's the way I've always remembered it

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and that is the way according to my research,

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the terms are meant to be used.

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If you listen to the secret cabal podcast,

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I think they got it backwards.

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That said, if you just understand

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that they got the terms backwards,

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they had a really interesting conversation about this.

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So I wanted to put in my two cents.

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So to answer the original question

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of the person who posed it,

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what is the most random game

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and what is the most deterministic game?

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And I think a secondary element is,

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what is the most random input randomness game?

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What is the most random output randomness game?

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And what is the most deterministic game?

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And then is there a game that gets that mix just right?

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So a lot of different options here.

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So I thought at first I would talk about

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games that involve input randomness.

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Now most Euro games that have some level of randomness at all

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have input randomness.

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The example they brought up on the secret cabal

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was Castles of Burgundy.

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In that game you roll dice

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and then you can spend those dice

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to do a variety of different things

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because you roll the dice before you take your action

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that is input randomness.

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Though that idea also perpetuates

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through a number of other elements

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of Castles of Burgundy.

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It determines which tiles come out into the depots.

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It determines which tiles come out into the market to purchase.

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And those three things together

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set up different situations in which you have to react

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tactically and somewhat strategically

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to the randomness that the game creates for you.

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So in terms of pointing to a game

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that has a fair amount of input randomness,

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I think Castles of Burgundy is a great call.

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The couple other games I would point to

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that have a similar thing.

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Deck Builders that use a line,

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a river of cards to purchase

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like Harry Potter Hogwarts Battle

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is involves input randomness in two ways.

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One, there is a river of cards that you're buying.

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Two, actually three ways I guess.

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One, there is, okay,

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Harry Potter Hogwarts Battle

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involves input randomness in three different venues.

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One, it has the river of cards that you can purchase from.

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Two, it has the villains that come out.

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You don't ever know what order they're gonna come out

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except that Voldemort will be last.

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And three, the cards coming out of your deck

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that you have shuffled.

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So all three of those things,

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they all happen before you take your turn.

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They're all input randomness

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and then you respond to those situations

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with your decisions.

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So I would point to most deck builders

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as having a very high degree of randomness

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that's input randomness.

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That said, most of these games people don't think of

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when they think of like a really random game.

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You often don't talk about those games.

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I would say perhaps the highest version

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of input randomness that I can think of

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is Karl Chudyk's Mottainai.

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Now in Mottainai you have a wide variety

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of different things you can do with your cards

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and the cards have a variety of different things

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that they can do.

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But you never know which cards you're gonna get and when.

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There are a number of different ways to draw cards

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but when you get them, you never know

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quite what they're gonna be

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and since each one has a different power on it,

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it's extremely, you're acting extremely reactive

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to the cards that you draw.

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I would accept and without too much vigor argue

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that Innovation has a similar level of randomness

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as part of its construction

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because that game is also full of cards

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that have a variety of different figures on them.

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So for input randomness, there we go.

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I think the extreme would be Mottainai or Innovation.

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With regard to output randomness,

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output randomness are games where the result

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has to is determined by the randomness.

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Now one way to do this would be to focus on games

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that are entirely about output randomness,

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that perhaps the most output random game I think

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you'd think of is Strike.

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And Strike you are rolling dice into a bowl

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and you're seeing if your dice match.

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If the dice match in pairs or triples or whatever,

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if you ever have more than one dice that matches,

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you get to pick it up.

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If the dice don't match, then you leave them in there

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or if you roll the X, the dice,

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the die is removed from the bowl

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and you're allowed to keep rolling into the bowl

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as long as you want, but if you run out of dice,

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you lose the game.

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It is an entirely random game with almost no control.

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The only decision you get to make is

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do you throw a die or dice into the bowl or not?

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So very, very random.

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That might be the most random game I could point to,

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but it's also barely a game because of that randomness.

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If you wanted to find a couple more games

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that were a little more gamey that I really enjoy

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that work on this output randomness,

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often push your luck games depend on output randomness

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because part of what you're trying to do

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is decide how long do I keep relying on randomness

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to keep the game going.

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So a game like Quacks of Quedlinburg or Incan Gold,

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these are output randomness games

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and I think very successful in it.

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The other kind of game that I like that has output randomness

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are the Ameritrash games, particularly those

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from Flying Frog Productions,

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which focus on a classic style of playing a game

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that has a variety of results that you're trying to achieve

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and they all happen via die rolls.

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So I really like in Last Night on Earth

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or in the A Touch of Evil how you're gonna roll a die

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and that die will determine what happens

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in the outcome of your play.

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You get some things to mitigate the result,

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but not very many,

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and often just a bad roll as a bad roll as a bad roll.

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So I would point to if I'm gonna say a game

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that uses output randomness the most,

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it's gonna be Last Night on Earth or A Touch of Evil.

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As my favorite game that has tons of output randomness.

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I was thinking a little bit about deterministic games.

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On one hand, there are games that are absolutely deterministic

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but not very interesting for this conversation,

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particularly Chess and Go and Checkers,

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but that's not really what I wanna talk about

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those in this context.

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So it does beg the question,

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what would be my top deterministic games?

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And I can think of three that I wanna suggest.

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The first is one that they did mention on The Secret Cabal

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and that is Small World.

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Now Steve brought that game up in the context of output randomness

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or input randomness I guess because the factions

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that you're choosing are determined randomly.

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So when you are choosing your faction,

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there's this line of factions that have been put out

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and which pairings are in that line is random.

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That said, that aspect is determined

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well before you make your choice.

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So at best it's input randomness.

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But that's a very small part of the game.

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The main thing of the game is where do you choose to go,

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what do you choose to do?

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The entire context of the game is presented in fullness

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and you know what's gonna happen.

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You can make choices based on the pieces you have.

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You know exactly how the battles are gonna go out

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before you do them.

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This is the epitome of determinism

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and I think it works really well.

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So one of my favorite deterministic games would be Small World.

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There are two other games that I would point to

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that are not chess or checkers,

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but also feel deterministic.

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Okay, there's a few more games I would point to

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that feel deterministic.

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One of them is the game.

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And this one, this is interesting

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because the uncertainty comes from the other players

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which is true of like chess.

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Wow, this is the game, Strife.

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Now if you're a long time listener of the podcast,

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you know I mention this game once a year.

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It is a card game where you're choosing your cards

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and playing them against your opponent

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and all the cards interact in specific ways.

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So you know what your card is gonna do.

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You know what their card is going to do.

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The uncertainty comes from you not knowing

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which card they're going to pick,

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but it is a perfect information game.

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You know exactly which cards they have

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because you have those same cards.

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You can always see all the cards they've played.

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So it's a perfect information game.

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Even if it's not perfect certainty.

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I can't remember what term Tony used in the podcast.

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But Strife would be an example of another game

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that has no randomness,

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but nonetheless feels like it has some.

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Then you have three games that are sort of

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from the model of Chess or Checkers,

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but are in fact new hobby games.

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And those would be Onitama,

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Cairn and to That Time You Killed Me.

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Now Onitama you could argue has a little bit

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of uncertainty in it

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because the cards that you have at the beginning of the game

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are secret from your opponents.

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And they don't know which card you have

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until after you've played it.

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So that tiny piece of Onitama is uncertain,

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but not random.

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Every player has, one of the players has access to it

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and gets to control it.

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And then you get two other games that are much more abstract,

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but fully pull it perfect information.

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And that is Cairn and That Time You Killed Me.

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Both Cairn and That Time You Killed Me,

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are games where you know exactly what the opponent can do

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and you're just trying to anticipate and outplay them.

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These are games that feel most like

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Chess or Checkers or other games of similar ilk,

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even if they have their own uniquenesses.

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And those would be games that are the epitome of determinism.

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Well that brings me to the end of my walk.

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I did not come up with an answer

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for the buttery smooth middle game.

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So I leave it to you listeners,

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pickers-up and deliverers, PUDders.

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I don't know what we're calling you.

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I don't, did we decide that?

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Contribute to that conversation or to the question

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of which game falls right in the middle

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by heading to boardgamegeek guild 3269

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and sharing your thoughts over there.

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Thanks for joining me on my walk today.

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I hope your next walk

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is as pleasant as mine was.

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Bye-bye.

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